What do the Mayo Clinic, Gwyneth Paltrow,and some Formula 1 drivers have in common? They use infrared saunas by Clearlightto elevate their performance, recovery, and health. But what's the sciencebehind these saunas? How do they differfrom the traditional ones? To answer these questions and many more,I have the pleasure of bringing you Johannes Kettelhodt,the CEO and Co-Founder of Clearlight Saunas International, one of the leadinginfrared sauna manufacturers in the world.
Hey Johannes, thankyou so much for taking the time to be here with us todayand expand our knowledge all about saunas. Thanks, mate, I look forward to diving deeper. Yeah, So we will go with youon the topic later in the episode. But if you would have tosum it up briefly for our viewers, why are saunas importantfor health and longevity? That’s a challenge to say thatin a few words and sentences. I mean, I think, you know, saunashave been around for hundreds of years,.
But I think there's definitely a bit of a second revolutionactually happening at the moment, you know? Contrast therapy,which is heat and cold exposure definitely is a very trendy thing; you see a lot of stars and other healthgurus post about it, rave about it. Tony Robbins is a big advocate,you know, Huberman, Peter Attia, these are just some of the namesand the reason why is I think that you know we know that saunas and ice bathsand cold exposure feel good.
Like you know, it's common sensefor a lot of people to enjoy that and some people might not like hot saunas in which case you can go to lowertemperature saunas or do a hot bath. But overall playing with an increasein core temperature and then also the reduction in coretemperature, has amazing health benefits. And I think the reason why they're really trendy at the momentis that there's a lot more knowledge coming out. I mean, we live in a very fast age from a technology perspective.
There's more and more, you know, computing powerthat's more and more studies, there's more more communication, right? So we're very well connected globally and that really leads to the factthat there's more and more knowledge to be shared on saunas. You know, we have long term studiescoming out that show all-cause mortality reductions of up to 45% in Finnish men. And you know, it's very clearthat the more often.
You use sauna,the less likely you're essentially dying. Like, you know, if you just really want tosimplify things. So all these things, meaning history,technology, knowledge studies and the fact that we all want to livea happy and healthy life. And I think really make contrast therapy- saunas, in particular, and infrared saunas as well- a very, very interesting technology from a health, sustainability, and longevity perspective. Yeah.
Thank you, Johannes. And absolutely,I find the topic fascinating in terms of if you look at saunas,you know, they mention that the first little traces of saunaswere like 2000 B.C. or even earlier than that, which is crazy because obviously backthen there was no technology whatsoever. But even if you think, let's say, Wim Hof,when we're talking about cold exposure, he was doing already the breathingand the cold exposure way before they actually understoodthe physiological mechanisms underlying.
The benefits. And so, yeah, that'sa really interesting topic, which is like sometimes our bodies and minds knowwhat's best for us, even though we don't have the proof. So looking back, you know, fromthe 2000 B.C., then we jump to the 1950s – I think – when it comes to that firstelectric sauna in Finland and then we seealso the advent of infrared saunas. So can you shed light, given your verylong experience on the topic between the traditional saunaand the infrared sauna both from a health.
Benefit perspective,but also from a user experience one? Sure. I mean, you know,I think maybe just for context, like I think it was in the 1980sthat Japanese researchers really found out about infrared. And, you know, italways sounds like a very technical term. You know, infrared,you speak about wavelength, some of it is heat, some of it is light. So maybe just to providea little bit of a softer entry,.
Essentially, infrared is invisiblelight, right? So similar to how you have UV lightor how you have x rays, you know, there are a lot of light spectrumsavailable. Infrared is just one of the lightspectrums. It's primarily invisible, you know,although it obviously is artificially createdin a sauna it's natural. You have it in fire,you have it in healing elements. The sun is made up to 50% of infrared. And so, therefore,you know, it's a very natural wavelength.
And essentially what infrared is doing,it's, you know, it's utilizing light. And thisis used to raise the core temperature. You know, that's essentially what it does. So just I just want to providea bit of context because often times people are scared of this terminologyand they get lost in the details. But infrared, technically, it's like this light heats up core temperature,you know, heats up bodies. The mechanism for infraredis almost the same as sunlight. You know,we have photo receptors in the skin.
And over time they get activatedand our core temperature rises. But if we go back to the basics, which is, I think what you were quite keenon, then, you know, you have traditional saunas, they’re oftenreferred to as Finnish saunas because as you said, you know the Finnishand I think also the Estonian they’re probably THE cultures all over the worldthat really own the sauna space in the senseof highest number of saunas per capita, you know,probably and total numbers as well. And you know, for those who actuallyhave been to Finland and Estonia,.
I'm sure you can relate to that, thatno matter where you go, there's always saunas. Actually, that's what they call them. It's a beautiful ritual, very cleansing. In those countries,it's also used for social activities. You know, you go there even on a businessmeeting, you discuss important business, you know, with friends,you kind of talk about that stuff. And it just really becomeslike a very social thing to do. But obviously what happanelswhile, you know,.
We use one of these Finnish saunas,we're actually faced with our temperatures of 80°C, you know, 70°C,80°C, 90°C, 100°C, maybe even 110 °C, depending on how extreme it is. Typically or traditionally,this was actually made from fire. So you literally had in an ovenat the back of the sauna. On there, there would bea bucket of water, this bucket and the water in there would be gettingto a boiling temperature and the hot vapor would essentially run into the sauna,obviously over time, increasing the sauna. So you need be in there for ten,15 minutes.
You're exposed to these high temperatures. Over time, your core temperature risesand you're like, man, this is really hot. So the body actually needs to startsweating in order to cool the body. You do two or three rounds. That's the traditionalway. An infrared sauna is also a sauna. I know the Finnish people would say“This is not a real sauna”, but, you know, I think there's more and more researchcoming out that actually infraredsaunas have a place.
They’re incredibly, incredibly useful to really incorporateon a day to day basis. But the mechanisms are very different. So as I said before,infrared is a natural wavelength, but in an infrared saunawe produce this artificially. So it's an electric sauna, as you referred to, and in an infraredsauna you have infrared heating panels. These panels can be made upfrom different materials.
They can be carbon, they can be ceramic. Some German company could usemagnesium, others might use halogen bulbs. Electricity, in basic terms,runs into this heater. The heater actually heats upand the heater gets a certain surface temperature and then the infrared heatis radiated from this heater. You know, obviously, the higherthe temperature, you know, the more you’re in there in a different infrared spectrum. And if you look at what an infrared sauna looks like you know,it's like a room you know 4 walls,.
Floor, ceiling, you have theseheating elements inside the sauna and you have very shortpreheating times, only 15 to 20 minutes, because it's not about hotair temperature. You know, the maximum temperature,you typically find in an infrared sauna it's 40°C to 70 °C. But it really isn't about the airtemperature. It's more about the infrared heatbeing emitted from this heaters. Our bodies -because ideally we are in there naked, you know -we absorb the heat through the skin.
And over timeour core temperature increases. So rather than doing two or threeiterations, you typically do one session lasting up from a minimum of 20 minutesup to a maximum of 45 or 50 minutes because it takes your body longer andfor the heat to be processed in your body. But over time,your core temperature rises. You start to sweat, you detoxify,and all of that without fire, without three fold electricity,without any moisture and a very, very highelectricity/energy efficient setup. And I think that's in a sortof a long answer,.
From my point of view,the difference between those two [saunas], also from a modality perspectiveand really incorporating it into your home Initially And so also, from a user experienceperspective, the difference is,like with the traditional sauna, home Initially you have all of the steamand you feel more hot theoretically, because you're in a hot roomwhile the other one is less impactful from that perspective,because everything happens more inside.
Home Initially yes. Like initially, obviouslybecause you're in an infrared sauna and you're not coming into a crankinghot room. But what you would realize, obviously,because you're staying longer in an infrared sauna, you will get to the point where you feellike, “Man, this is boiling hot”. But it’s just different, you know. And I think a lot of people, especially at an older age,they say “These traditional.
Saunas are too intense for me.”Like I get dizzy when I step in there, you know, especially, I think older women,they struggle with that. They say it's too hot for me. And that'sI think when an infrared sauna is great. And, you know, we have a lot of men that say “Well,this isn't really a sauna, I'm not going to sweat.” But I would almost take a betwith every single man that, you know, if you stay long enough in an infraredsauna.
Your core temperature actually goes higherthan in a traditional sauna because you are staying longer in it andthe mechanism of heat is very different. But yeah, it's, you know, I don't think it's eitherall both have their place. And to me, on a day to day basis, you know, an infraredsauna is so bloody easy to incorporate. You know, it hardly costs any electricity,there's no moisture. You can have it in your livingroom, sleeping room, bathroom, basement, cellar, garageWhereas a traditional sauna, is a bit.
Of a different setup. Yeah. Especially in countries where, like, for example,Beyond Sapiens is based in Finland. So my business partner, Linda, she lives in Finland, and she literallyhas a sauna as part of the situation because that's how things are in Finland,which is amazing. Amazing. Yes. I live close to Milan.
There are no saunas. Like, if you want a sauna you need togo to the gym or to a SPA center. There you go. You can not only find them at a residential regular house. And so that's where I think the infraredsaunas can be easier to implement, for sure. Yeah, And continuing our exploration of infrared.
Saunas, we're both very,very passionate about technology. And I know you have a decade of experienceon the topic, so I would be curious to understand a little bit more deepthe technology behind infrared saunas. sure. So, you know, I mean,I think the basic mechanism is really that different materials react differently to heat, right? So if you think about ceramicand you have a ceramic cup, for instance,.
This has been burnt in an oven becauseit's a very heat resistant material. So if you think about, materials that actually have a lot of heat exposure or heat resistance,such as ceramic, it makes sense to understandthat these materials, because they can run hotter,they also get hotter in an infrared sauna. But hotter is not necessarily better. Whereas if you, for instance,look at carbon, you know, carbon is a very it's almost like soft material.
It gets artificially created. You know, typically they actuallycarbon heaters, they're big panels and they have a very even heatdistribution. And because of the factthat the material is different, the heat distribution is different, you can actually producedifferent types of infrared. Now, there are three types of infrared. One is called Far Infrared. It's typically the most gentle wavelength.
It's very long in terms of the frequency,but very soft. It doesn't penetrate very deep,but it's also the most natural one. Like, you know, for instance,it's been used in hospitals to keep babies warm, or it's been used in restaurantsat times to keep the food warm. Like that's the type of infrared. It’svery gentle. And, you know,it doesn’t penetrate very, very deep. And you have Mid-Infrared,which is a bit shorter, means a little bit more energyis essentially in that wavelength and that penetrates.
Up to 3 to 4 millimeters into the skin,so it penetrates deeper. And then there'sthe Near Infrared, the shortest, but the most intense wavelength,which even penetrates up to 5 or 6 millimeters. So this actually goesthrough the upper layers of the skin and through that,quickly raises the core temperature. So knowing that and knowingthat the surface temperature of a heater determines the type of infraredthat is being generated. For instance, you know, this carbonwe use carbon ceramic heaters,.
They're sort of a patentthat we came up with 11 years ago. And, you know, we know that we wanta surface temperature between, say, 85°C and 150°C,and you can actually calculate this backwards,what this wavelength equates to. So knowing this, you know, we designedthis heater to be around the 9.8 or, you know, around the 9.5 microns,which is more like the human frequency, which is, you know,if you rub your two hands together and you generate heat and you kind oftake them apart, you actually feel that we as human beings,we emitted, we emit infrared.
So we've designed these heatersto match the type of infrared that we as humans emit, just obviouslyon a much more intense level. So, you know, you can be technicallydesigning this heater as you want it to in order to really come upwith a great infrared experience. That is the sort of the technologyaspects from a heater is perspective. And there, you know,if you do your research, some would say carbon is best, others ceramic is best,others say halogen is best. And what we try to do is we tried we try to combinethese different wavelengths.
Because, you know, Far Infrared has a place that worksvery well for detoxification. Mid-Infrared has its place that worksvery well for wound healing, you know, for really providingskin benefits. And Near Infrared also works very well. You know, it really providesdeep and soothing heat for relaxation of the muscles, ligaments,and potentially also the bones. And that's why we combineall these types of infrared and what we call a full spectrum sauna,or full spectrum infrared.
You know, some of the more established companieshave all pivoted towards full spectrum because of the narrative of obviously,if you can really provide different wavelengths, then, you know, you providedifferent benefits to your body. But ultimately,with all of these technologies the primary mechanism on healthin an infrared sauna is to raise core temperature. And with thatyou have a cardiovascular aspect. You know, your heart rategoes up to under 120-130-140 bpm.
Your heart needs to pump, you detoxifythrough sweating. And that's basically the underlyingmechanism of an infrared sauna. Sure you can use different heaters, a different technology to raisethat core temperature effectively, and that's the infrared. But the second bit,which and I know I talk a lot, but I think it's important,the second bit is EMF and ELF. EMF standsfor electromagnetic frequencies. ELF stands for extremely low frequencies.
And, you know, commonly it’salso referred to as electro-smoke, meaning it's a negative effect of electricityrunning or a current running. And, you know, the stronger the current,the higher the EMF exposure is. The World Health Organization (WHO)has really set standards to actually say, look, you know, if you are closeto a device or an electrical current, these are the threshold that shouldn’tbe exceeded. And that's particularly relevantin an infrared sauna, because you're literally sittingin a closet or in a you know, in a sauna and you have heaters all around you.
So you naturally have a very high exposureof EMF and ELF. And that's obviously counterproductivefor your health. And therefore,that's something to really look out for if you are looking at investinginto an infrared sauna. There'sprobably only a handful of companies worldwide who really own that space. I can say hands downthat we're probably the company that really has the lowestEMF/ELF levels worldwide. And there's more about technology,but I really feel like on a fundamental.
Basis, it comes out to the heaterand the EMF. Because this is the heart of the sauna. You know, if you have great heaters,they raise the temperature. Wonderful.You have cardiovascular workout. And then the second one ishow safe is it, really? And that's where the EMFand the ELF component comes in. Thanks for sharing. And as always, pretty much in anythingrelated to health and longevity is about finding that sweet spot between,.
You know, let's say, to promote longevitywe need to be in a calorie restriction. Yes, but we don't need to be too muchin a calorie restriction, otherwise we're going to lose muscle mass,lean muscle mass. And so it's a really interesting conundrumto solve. And overall, continuing a little biton the technology perspective, I always think of technology as an enabler in accelerator for humanity overall. And that, of course, can be connectedto our health and longevity. So we're going to go deeperinto the longevity piece in just a minute.
But if you could sum it up briefly, like you already mentionedthe cardiovascular benefits, but what's the bird's eye view benefits of infrared saunas? I think it's twofold. The first one is just really the accessibilityof getting a cardiovascular workout. It you know, I think we knowthat exercise, it's important. And it's important for the cardiovascularbenefits, which is why,.
You know,cardio exercise is very much recommended. And the second piece is obviously musclemass, right? Because the older we get, the less musclewe have. But we actually know that we need musclemass in order to get older, make sure that our body functionsare good. So knowing thatand knowing that a lot of people are sick, are in pain and are probably strugglingwith getting an hour of cardio in. You know, if someone is fatiguedor has seasonal affective disorderor has chronic joint inflammation.
Good luck trying to squeeze in cardiotwice a week, even for someone that is healthy, who has kids and a joband maybe a business or something else. It's very challenging and constantly in the tradeoffbetween strength workout and cardio. Even I find myself in that. And so knowing the importance of cardiovascular health,I think that's a given for longevity. You know, you can read thousands of booksor studies. Everyone speaks about the factthat we need a healthy heart.
Without that, it's, you know,we're not actually going to live long. And I think in some countries,cardiovascular diseases are the numberone mortality factor in the world. That's heart disease,strokes, high blood pressure. So it's notyou know, it's not a hidden factors. It's the elephant in the roomand it's being addressed at the moment. And surely not just hopping in a saunadoesn't help you, but it's one element that actually helpsyou regulate your nervous system. So knowing that,.
I think saunas, I would wish saunasto find a place in every household. And I don't think traditional saunas are possible to actuallyto be found in every household because of the excessive electricity use,because of the excessive space and because of the excessive set up,meaning three phase electricity, you know, and moisture,and potentially using it with fire. So that's when infraredsauna really is a great modality.
Because often they come flat packed. You know,the smallest one is only one square meter. It doesn't need three phase electricity. You can move with your sauna. You know, companies offer – usoffer a lifetime warranty. So it's almost like the number onehealth gadget you just take with you. And it doesn't take the same effortand time to really do it on a daily basis. You know, our wish with the infraredsaunas, is to create a meaningful health tour that you get to use for an hour a dayand you maximize your health span.
That’s why we bring a lot of differenthealth modalities. And it's possiblebecause it only cost you $0.40 per session, you know,which a lot of people can afford. And sure, yes,you need to pay for the sauna up front. But you know,you have very low maintenance costs. You can use 45 minutes in there, you'regoing to downregulate the nervous system. You're going to get the cardiovascularbenefit. You're going to detoxify through sweating. And we haven't even touched on toxinsand the importance of high toxicity.
On our thyroid, on our immune system,on mold, and what it does to the body. And you get a whole lot of other healthbenefits. And it's due to the factthat it's very short to pre-heat and modulate,it doesn't take a lot of space. I generally believeit's the number one thing to do for your cardiovascular healthon a daily basis. You can easily get it 3 to 4 times a week for an hour in the morningor in the evening. I think it's possible.
And with Finnish or with traditionalsaunas, just because of the time they take to preheat because of the effortto go to a health club, as you referenced. I don't think they provide the same mechanismsin terms of ease of use. Especially if we want to make themsomething part of our daily routine,we need to have them close by. Otherwise, we're not going to stickto a regimen, overall. I want to make this fair, there's constantly this conversation, “Isinfrared better or traditional.
Sauna is better?” You know,and I think at the moment the hardline is reallysaying traditional sauna is the way. But there's a lot of, a ton of researchcoming out on infrared saunas. And I think over the next five years, that the picture, that tideswill turn, so to speak. And to me it's not an either or question. I try to use an infraredsauna three times a week. Do I always achieve it? No, but most of the times I do.
And then if I can, I try to geta traditional sauna in over the weekend because I enjoy the ritual,I enjoy the social nature of that, but it takes me at least 2 to 3 hoursto head there, to make it a ritual, go with friends, take a break in between. And that's how I like to think aboutinfrared sauna vs. traditional saunas. And so going a little bit deeperon the health and longevity benefits, given that we at Beyond Sapiens are all about doing thatand helping others do the same.
Traditional saunas. Like, how do infrared saunas fitinto this quest of extending lifespan and health span? Yeah, good question. I'd almost paraphrase it ashow do they actually not fit in? But let's maybe start at the top. I think the big oneis certainly detoxification. There was a study, I think, done in 2014which essentially analyzed the levels of toxinsand other certain chemical substances.
In sweat versus urine or blood. And it kind of tried to look at the different pathways of detoxificationas we as humans have. Like surely we've got to internaldetoxification organs. And I think they work great,especially the liver obviously has a vital rolein getting toxins out of the body. But what this study foundis actually that certain toxins in particular,but also chemical substances,.
Are actually more effectively detoxedthrough sweat. It was kind of somethinglike aluminum, cadmium, arsenic, and it wasn't like a magnitudeof maybe 10%, but it was up to 20-25 timesmore effective, which means like 25 higher concentrations of these substances were found in sweatcompared to urine and blood. So that was a pretty big eye openerfor a lot of the people that said “Actually, you can't really detoxthrough the skin.” And, for those that don't know this, the skin is actuallythe largest organ in the body.
It's not like a one entry barrier. It's actually like a sponge,meaning we can absorb things if we put chemicals stuff on our skin. But our body can also use the skin to essentially get stuffflushed out of the system. And when we sweat, sure it’s water,but it's minerals and it's lots of toxinsand other chemical substances. So that has true power.
And I think if you looked at toxic exposure or certain toxic substances and markersfor instance in drink drinking water and the food industry,it's on an all time high. Right? So there's no denying of that. The question is really,does it correlate with an increase.
In certain diseases,cardiovascular or autoimmune? Who knows, causation doesn'tequal correlation, right? So there's more studies to be done,but there's a lot of health experts that really say high levels of toxinsdo have an effect on human health, on our thyroid particularly,on our immune system, in particular, potentially on chronic fatigue or seasonalaffective disorder to some extent. But there are better expertsto comment on that. But knowing the fact that we can actuallyhave a really great way to detox, to me, that's another one.
The second one that we talked aboutis cardiovascular disease, right? We talked about that. It's on an all time high. In fact, I think I read recentlythat actually the life expectancy is at the pointof actually coming down again, which means we’regoing to actually not getting older. And I think it's partly dueto the lifestyle. Probably primarilydue to the lifestyle and high stress, not actually having a good heart health.
And I touched base on this before. If someone is sick or burnt out, good lucktrying to squeeze in cardio twice a week. I mean, sure, if you have a good coach and a lot of discipline,you can take small steps. And an infraredsauna can't substitute for exercise, but it can actually providea great cardiovascular workout because well, while we're sittingin the infrared sauna or in the sauna, we relax and we can read a book,we can meditate, we can actually talk.
Our bodyis actually going through a workout. I use the Oura ring to sort of checkmy maximum heart rate and my normal pulse is kind of 55, 60,so quite low. But in an infrared saunait went up to 130-140. That is Zone 2 cardioif you actually were to jog or run with a friend,you would almost be able to not talk. So that's the intensity for the heart. So we're training the heart. Our immune system is being conditionedbecause we essentially go through.
An artificial fever. Hippocrates said “Give me a fever,and I’ll cure every disease.” I don't actually, but I’ll saythat I read recently that he might actually not be the original author, butI think a lot of people have heard that. And we know that fever is a built in genetical mechanism from our bodyto fight off bacteria and viruses. So if we are able to elevate our core temperature in an infrared saunaover 40 minutes up to a 1.5°C [34.7°F].
So that's a 38.4-38.5°C [101.12-101.3°F] feverby actually having an infrared sauna. Then we strengthen our immune system. We talked about reducing inflammation; infraredsaunas are very well known for that. You know, they've helped with arthritis,with chronic joint inflammation and it providesa sense of positive stress. You know, often this is referred toas hormesis or hormetic stress, meaning it's actually uncomfortable for the bodyand that's uncomfortable for us,.
But it actually does somethingvery positive to our mindset, to our mental health,but also to our body. Longevity, you’re always heartalking about heat shock proteins. Very, very interesting topic. For those that don't know about it, heat shock proteins are in essencesupportive structural proteins that come in and repairor fix other proteins. And we're obviously madeup to a very large proportion of proteins.
So if we essentially expandand extend our cellular health or life cycle,that means we age less, technically. And I think Dr. Rhonda Patrick from the US is probably themost renowned researcher on this topic. She found that primarilytraditional saunas obviously activate heat shock proteins. So once you've had a sauna,they can stay active for 2 to 6 weeks. So it's actually very long timethat they stay active. And for a long time.
There was skepticism about the factwhether infrared saunas do get activated. But Siim Land and a few other very wellknown biohackers and health experts have provided a very cleartimeline of the fact that actually heat proteinsare being activated in an infrared sauna. You just have to stay longer to obviously get this kick infrom a core temperature aspect. So these are justsome of the health benefits you know, I could probably talk on, but to me, theseare probably the most important ones. I just want to jump in real quick to tell you that if you’re considering getting a Clearlight sauna,.
Ensure to mention “Beyond Sapiens”to your sales rep to get the best price. While if you want to 2x your energy levels and extend your healthspan, then you can learn more about our Beyond Sapiens Coaching. You can find all the links in the description. Now let’s get back to the interview! And I genuinely believe that saunashave played a vital role in longevity. That's what the research is indicating. And there's a ton more research underwayfrom Alzheimer to depression markers to blood,you know, blood pressure,.
That are all impacted indirectlyor directly from saunas. So I think it's a vital part,and I think we'll only see more good news coming out on infraredsaunas and traditional saunas. That's really powerful, and I know it's only the tip of the iceberg,because I know, like, on your website, you have a comprehensive overviewof all the benefits, and there are a lot. I just wanted to briefly touchalso on the weight loss part, because, like, first of all, we know that, you know, to live longer, yes,we need to be in a calorie restriction.
Potentially maybe doing some fasting,eating super healthy, so on and so forth, but maintaining a steady,healthy, lower weight is one of the most important things,because being overweight or obese is very stronglycorrelated with poor health outcomes. And I know you with ClearlightSauna have done a study together with the BinghamtonUniversity in New York. So if you can tell us more about it,I think it would be really cool. Again one of these things that you know we always received smiles on, it's like,oh, you know why?.
Like surely weight loss does work. I want to be very transparent and saythat at the moment this is a hypothesis, what that means it's you know, it's provenuntil it's proven otherwise, right? So, you know, it'snot black and white evidence. But in this study we tested the participants in New York,it was three times a week. It was the NYU, the University ofBinghamton in New York, as you referenced. We tested actually whether people would notice a differencein body.
Fat percentageif they used an infrared sauna three times a week,and the rest would stay the same. They tested it with people in themorning and in the evening. And thenthey just measured the body percentage. And I think what they foundis that typically people saw a 4-5% reduction in body fat, and body fat was stronger for people who did it at night than for peoplethan who did it in the morning. And again, this is a hypothesis.
So, you know, the theoryor the hypothesis really is around the spike of HGH,the human growth hormone. And but I also know for a fact that if you actually use an infrared saunait also spikes your glucose levels, which is I think whyan infrared sauna in the morning, but actually not be as effectivebecause from a blood sugar perspective, you don't want to have a very strong spikein glucose because. You can actually be more hungry throughoutthe day because of that extreme spike. But what that also tells is really that,while we’re.
Actually sitting in an infrared sauna,our body needs to provide glucose, meaning energy, in order to maintainthe processes of the human body. And it makes sense like, you know, if your heart rate goes upand if your body’s actually sweating and if everything internally happensfaster because of an increased temperature,that requires energy. And this energy is calories. It's energy being burnt. And therefore, it's very black andwhite that if you use an infrared sauna.
And your body goes through a workout,then you're burning calories. How much? That is the question, right? I see very wild numbers,from 200-600 kcal. That's whatsome of the other studies have found. But I looked at the methodologyand it's not a lot of common sense. So to me,that feels like a bit of a wild number. It's very difficult to quantify,very very different to quantify, because technically you'd have tosomehow measure the water.
Or the sweat that you've lost. And then calculate it backwards in termsof how many calories you’ve burned. But it was a noticeable changein body fat. I always like to think about this -and same with the Finnish sauna study – is it really the infrared sauna itself,or is it maybe the fact that because you have done an infraredsauna, you’re positively impacting your lifestyle,meaning you're probably more likely to take the steps or you're more likelyto not actually have a beer. Maybe you're actually more likelyto switch to mineral water or tea.
Just because of that healthconsciousness, right? And I noticed that myself. Like if I'm actuallyin a very positive routine, I drink less alcohol, I eat healthier. So that's something thatthis study didn't look at. Therefore it's the infrared saunasupportive of that? 100%. Is it solely the infrared saunaresponsible for the body fat loss? I don't think so,because we're always human beings.
We're always,you know, we're not predictable. We’re emotional human beings. And if we have a stressful week,we're probably eating more junk food. Right? But I think to me it's very blackand white that the increased cardiovascular activityin the body equates with a calorie deficit, or a calorie consumption almost. Because you literally burn more caloriesby sitting.
So it's like your metabolic rate increasesduring that session. And it most likely has somepositive effects also after the session. And I think what you touched onis a really interesting topic in terms of, let's also take the Oura ring,for example. Like it doesn't changeanything of your sleep, but only having it and seeing the data, you're like “Oh, I guess I should change somethingthat I do on a day to day basis.” And so, I might say, “Well, you know, nowmy sleep is way better because of this.” No,but it was a contributor.
And so I think the same is truefor, at the end of the day, any kind of technology. Like, even now I'm tracking my glucoseto check all the things and it's only again, it's not changinymy habits directly, but I'm changing my habitsafter seeing the data. And so, yeah, it's all of theseinteresting dance between the two. Absolutely. And it's very hard to quantify, which isI think why you're right in the sense that, you know, education helpsto make qualified decision.
And data helpsto make good decisions. Right? That's something we're actually working onbecause everyone knows saunas are good, and I think to give an example,everyone thinks the longer I say in an infrared sauna the better. Right? And I think the tendency is true because,you know, your cardiovascular workout is more intense. Your core temperature is higherthe longer you stay in there, but it actually acts like a U curve.
At some pointyou're actually doing more bad then you're doing goodbecause it's too exhaustive. It's the same with exercise. If you overdo it, it's not healthy. Same with sun. If you overdo sun, you get a sunburn,but it's not healthy. Same with the sauna. It'sjust a lot more difficult to quantify. But thereis a pivotal point, and I think Dr. Marc Cohen, one of the most renownedsauna researchers from Australia,.
He really said “You want to get to a pointwhere it's uncomfortable, then take three deep breath and go out. If you go beyond this point,you're most likely ending up with headachesor with not feeling very good. And that's usually a signthat you've overdone it. Thanks for sharing. And I know that depending on the personality of a person,I think this might be really accurate. In terms of personally, I'msomeone that always tend to overdo things.
Like when I started intermittent fasting,I was like, Well, you know, I will fast for, like, crazy hours. Or when I started doingbreathing exercises, as I mentioned to you privately, my diaphragmgot ultra contracted because I overdid it. Same with exercise. And so as always, is just like technicallyour body knows, but we’re overriding it with our prefrontal cortexand in some cases we need to do that, let's say,for lack of motivation or whatever. But in other moments,we do need to trust our bodily instincts.
More than our brains. more than our brains. making. And also talkingabout making saunas more accessible, I wanted to touch on another point,which is obviously, as we mentioned earlier, like, you cannot maybehave the space for a traditional sauna. But it's also truethat if you live in a smaller apartment, you don't really have the opportunityto dedicate a space of the room for an infrared saunabecause you don't have that space.
And so nowadayswe have seen the rise of sauna blankets, which they have their space. So I don’t wanna bash on them. But of course, they do not providethe same benefits of an infrared sauna,but just the heat aspect. But I also know that you at Clearlightcreated like a hybrid solution that providesthe infrared therapy benefits while also making itinto a smaller package. So if you can tell us more about it,I think it would be really interesting.
We talked about the blankets before and I think it's great, like in the sensethat, infrared is being broughtto the mass market because not everyone can afford a saunaand probably never will. And I think it's brilliant, right? So if it's a question of actually,you know, if I don't have the money to buy somethingproper, go! An infrared sauna blanket is good. But for people that really understandhow light works.
And how infrared heat works,the blanket is a bit of a gimmick. Because, we talked about the surface temperature of the heaterdetermining actually the infrared heat. And that is a problem. Because you're literally in an a cocoonand a sleeping bag. And the heating panels are directly touchingyour skin. There's a limit of really how much andhow much good infrared is being absorbed. And I've seen actually onlinesome pictures that actually reference.
A blanket that you need to put around youand then go into the infrared sauna blanket. But infrared is light. If we actually have a blanket or clotheson, we're blocking the infrared light. And sure, over time it gets warm. It's almost like a sleeping bag. And you put three people in a sleepingbag, you'll start to sweat, right? Because heat is being generated. That's the same mechanism in an infraredsauna blanket, because oftentimes,.
The heat exposure is not good. But does it help you sweat? Yeah,of course. But is it proper infrared, the wayit's been designed in Mother Nature? No. And you know, I'm thankful for infraredsauna blankets because it provides a piece of education, and I think everyonewho understands light – and we try to educate a lot on this topic -will understand that this is a compromise. But would I love someone to use a blanketversus not actually being able to sweat? Hell yeah, use the blanket, becausesweating is better than not sweating. But what we have done.
As a most portable solutionwe have is the Sauna Dome. And so we essentially literallyhave two dome elements around, and inside we have the same infrared heatersthat we use in our cabins. And then we have a mat. And on the inside of the matwe have two heaters built in. Again, there’s something in between because otherwiseit would be too hot to lie on it. So therefore the heat from the matis a little bit weaker than what we have in the cabins.
But the two dome elements on the front are fully stackedwith these infrared heaters. And this unit is actually so intensethat you can actually practice do-it-yourself Hypothermia, which is aknown cancer treatment in Germany. Again, that's not anything I'madvising or we’re advising on. But the core temperature can go beyondnormal levels. We've actually worked with the ArcadiaCancer Clinic in Germany on this, and they've essentially been ableto use this to really induce temperatures of beyond 40°C [104°F].
Again, health disclaimerwe cannot recommend that. I'm absolutely not recommending thisfor anyone to do at home. But the fact that this infrared heat inthis unit is so intense really just showshow much your core temperature can actually riseusing good source of infrared. And it probably has a footprint of 80cm *60cm * 80cm [2.62 ft * 1.97 ft * 2.62 ft]. You can sort of fold it together,stack it up tight. It's not really the definition of portablebecause it's 35 kg [77lbs].
So, you can carry it. You can carry the individual components,put it in your car, potentially drive to a client.That's what some people do. But it is a bulky unit. It comes with a very long warranty again. And it also comes with low EMF levels,because we say “If we do anything in the infrared sauna& health space, it should be safe, effective and a good quality. Yeah, that's really powerful.
And also going deeper on the technologyand safety perspective, like I personally am, but I also knowyou are very much into technology, futurism, the future of humanityand all of that stuff, because that can simply helpimprove our quality of life, right? But of course, at the same time,we always need to be mindful of the immediate benefitswith the long term effects of our choices. And this is true in everything we do, youknow, nutrition, exercise, whatever else. And obviously the same appliesto using saunas and infrared saunas, especially from the EMF radiationsperspective that you briefly touched on.
Like, how does Clearlight Saunasaddress those concerns? It really starts with a heater design. The way we designed the heaters,we have a front and a back. So that's essentially the front. This is where the majority of the infrared is being emitted and we have sort ofheating wires running from plus to minus. On the back side we have an opposite current, much weaker,that runs the other way around. So for those that actually understandphysics.
And understand electromagnetic fields,if you have two electromagnetic fields with opposite poles,they actually reduce their exposure. So that's basic physics.That's essentially what we do. On every heater we actually have an opposite currentthat really mitigates and reduces fields. In the cabins, all of the electricalcomponents are on the roof. Why are they on the roof? A lot of manufacturers have them under the bench,which means if you have high exposure EMF,.
You're literally sittingon the source of the EMF and ELF, which can you know, I don't want to thinkabout sperm count or anything, but, there are theories around cancerand fertility in men and women, and it just makes sense. Like you wouldn’tsit on a Wi-Fi router as well, especially not in a saunaor in a health supply. Like that is common sense, which is why we put everything on the roofand we shield the roof from the inside because, you know, a lot of companiessay “EMF is not a problem for us.
We don't have EMF.” You know,the company's website says “0 EMF” on it. That's not true. It's not possibleto have a zero EMF sauna. Whenever there's an electrical current,you always have EMF. It's a question ofhow do you design the product so that where the user actually usesthe device has ideally as little exposure as possible,but you can always measure EMF. That's the nature of electricity, which is why.
We placethese electrical components in the roof. We're shield it from the insidewith a foil that mitigates the EMF so that it actually doesn'tpenetrate into the cabin. Then we use carbonized meshes. So as sort of grounding the heaterwith a dedicated grounding circuit to the base (tothe floor) that reduces ELF. Every heater has its own ELF circuitand there's more to it. Like the distancesare really optimized, right? So that the high exposures of EMF/ELFthey're a bit further away which also.
From a health perspective makes sensebecause it would be too hot otherwise. So these are just some of the thingswe're actually contemplating and thinking about. And we are probably the only companywho successfully really mitigate EMF to virtually undetectable levelswhere you sit. If you measured in the roof,you would find something you measure on the heater,you'd find something. But where you're sitting, EMF is zero. And ELF is a different;it's measured in Volt x Meters. It's.
The effects of an electricity field per meteror per square centimeter. Square meter to square centimeter. And we've, I think, brought it downto 1/10 of the closest competitor that we were able to measure. In fact, actually, in Amsterdam, you know, I took measurementsof one of our competitors. It was ten times higher, 15 times higher. I won't mention the name,.
But it is a real concern. And I think for someone that is listeningand wants to understand this, please, please, please, if not us,ask another party these questions. And if the answer is “it’s not a problem”,this company has fundamentally not understoodthe importance of EMF and ELF. Thanksfor addressing this very important topic. And I know that overall Clearlight Saunas is known as one of the most innovativeand effective saunas on the market. And I think the fact that you offera lifetime warranty on your residential.
Use products kind of,you know, makes it very clear. And I would just be curiousto understand some user case studies because I know you have also quite notable people using your saunas,athletes, and so on and so forth. So if you can share something with usabout that as an inspiration. I think if you go through casestudies of people using it, there is different types or classes of these institutionsor people.
Like we have the Mayo Clinic, you know, like a very internationally,very well renowned clinic that also does I think amazing knowledgeand education in the health space. They use our infrared saunas. We have the HippocratesHealth Institute in Florida, which is where they use sprouting or raw foodcombined with fasting, psychotherapy,and infrared sauna twice a day. They've been using our saunasfor 15 years. We have Deepak Chopra, who is obviouslya spiritual leader in that space.
We have famous Formula 1 drivers -I can’t mention names. We have from boxers, soccer players. You get athletes. You know, some of those are mentionedactually on our website. We have celebrities, deejays, actors,Zac Efron. You know, GwynethPaltrow is very outspoken on the benefits of infrared sauna. She uses a Clearlight Sauna.
But also in Europe,there's a large number of people and very famous peoplethat invest into that. And I think that the nature of theirinterest in such technology is different. If you look at a clinic, a doctor ora health clinic where they obviously have a very different interest,which is around detoxification, disease prevention, and they experiment, they study on this. If you have someone like an athleteor a Formula 1 driver really needs to perform at the peak level,they again have a different interest.
For them, it's about performance,it's about recovery. It's about, you know,how can they give their best with as little recovery time as possible. That's the interest of an athlete. And saunas are great because they provide the muscle with nutrients and oxygen. We haven't actually talked about recoveryand sort of strength improvement. Then I think celebrities for them,it might be about the beauty effects. Like a lot of the timebecause of the detoxification in skin.
And a lot of people say, “Well,I'm glowing” or “You are glowing, what's the secret?” And oftentimes“Well, I've been using an infrared sauna because my skin looks so much better.”Because you’re nourishing the skin through the sweat and the salt,you know, the detoxification element. So you can already see the interest is quite different. But almost all of them invest into one for health reasons and it could be performance to give the bestwhich again is also a form of health.
It could be to actually prevent diseaseor potentially even treat disease. Or it could be just an overall viewon health incorporating infrared saunasor heat exposure. So those are just some of the elements. And we spoke about cancer clinics. We spoke about very sick people. And I think there's a saying that says, “Health is everything,but if you have everything without health, then it's nothing.” It'ssomething along those lines.
We all want to live long,but we also want to live a healthy life. And ideally, you know, withas little sickness or disease as possible. Yeah, absolutely. But so, zooming outand looking into the future. This is alwayshow I end these conversations because like it's a topicthat I'm super, super passionate of. Because I think no matter,you know, what we see around us or believe about society,we are constantly evolving and improving. You know, if you look back 100 yearsin terms of the societal norms, technology.
And just life conditionsand also mortality rates, like we have improved in dramatic waysand we're just seeing the beginning of this exponential growth, thanks to all of the convergenttechnologies that are growing like crazy. this is one topic, but how do you think,where do you see the future of infrared saunas, both in the medium and long run? I think the more education and studies and knowledgewe are able to provide,.
I mean and I don't mean correlation,I mean proper causation, proper studies. I think the more are the easier actually getto spread the message and spread the word. Like I think you and me, we're in a bubbleand you know, in the bubble of very privileged, very well-educated people that probably knowa whole lot about saunas already. But it's the same with the biohacking events in London, Amsterdam,or maybe even in the US.
For a long time,biohacking was considered a rich people's hobby,and I still think it is to some extent. So the pivotal point will behow can these technologies and the knowledge around thesetechnologies be brought to a greater mass? And that could be geographicallyspeaking of mass, or it could be,demographically speaking, of mass. And I think that is the challengeof health in general. You know, if you look at what some ofthe most powerful companies are doing, they're all in the healthand wellness space.
You know,Amazon wants to do their own insurance. They all are out working on the AppleWatch, which incorporates at some point probably blood glucose measurementor skin temperature variation. You get Oura who is really partnering upon glucose measurements. It's a battle at the momentbetween these big companies trying to actually really slice up the cake and have as much of the cake as possible. But I think we as human beings, we alsohave a saying and that in the sense that,.
We technically should own our data. I think that’sthe biggest issue at the moment. Is that we don't own our health data. Google does, Amazon does, Oura does. Yeah, we need to pay to access our health dataif we're talking about the ring. And it's stupid. Why don’t we talk about the factthat another company owns health data? And so I really hope that whether it bea blockchain, be it another organization,.
Be it a provider that comes inwith a proper genuine non profit approach. I think that needs to be the number onefoundation that I would hope we see. I'm very doubtful that that will happenjust because of money and the way the system works. But I really hopethat that is one of the major shifts we'll actually see in the next fiveor ten years as technology evolves. On a product level, I think we'll see moreand more IOT – Internet of Things related aspects actuallyflowing into the hardware or the products. Meaning the interconnectednessof hardware and software.
I think it's just goingto exponentially increase. AI has really made that very clear. Everyone can now deploy a health coachand, you know, use ChatGPT model 4, 5, or whatever there is. And therefore, I think the personalization and the interconnectednessbetween software and hardware is ultimately,I think, what we’ll see in the future. Infrared saunas are no exception. I think if we can somehowqualify wellness, that means sleep.
That means, you know,how's my sauna session? How's my ice bath session? Was it actually good that I didor was it not good? Because we believe it's always good,but there's probably times where we shouldn't actually use it. When we're sick, it'stoo much for the organism. And I genuinely think that that's coming. And then I would obviously hopethat through studies and through edutainment,meaning education and entertainment,.
People see the power of hormetic stress, of exercise, nutritionand whatnot. And it's going to find a mass application or mass adoption in that sense. At least in some way, incorporating heat& cold could be a cold shower, could be a hot bath, doesn'talways have to be a sauna in the home. And I think that's a long way ahead of us. But fortunately tosome of the technological.
Advancements to the fact that the worldis more connected than ever before and the fact that there's more knowledgeavailable than ever before, and it'll just increase, I think a lot ofthe requirements are in position. But I would really hope that the data and the knowledge is actually democratized as opposed to an oligarchic systemthat just gives the power to a very few companiesand it's probably 5 to 6. And you and I, we could easilymake that within 10 seconds.
Because it's very obviouswho these companies are. I appreciate the reflection. I think it's really powerful. And I think the other pieceof the equation before we wrap this up is that most people, watching this,they know already and the importance of doing specific thingsto improve their health and longevity. But the problem is that the masses,they do not know the effects that just some simple lifestyle changes can have on their healthor lifespan.
Like there literally are really famousresearchers or professors that say, you know, if you would already do all the right things today,you would easily reach 100 years old without needing to do anything crazyabout your longevity. And I think the other piece ofthe equation is also the business world, understanding this correlationbetween treating their people in a good way, not because of “Oh,employee benefits” to make them happy, but morebecause if I make you happy and healthy,.
You have great benefitsin your personal life. But they obviously also translateto the business world. And so we have this beautiful synergisticapproach to just maximizing our life. And I do hope that will happen in the future. Yeah. And before we finish,if you also want to share with us upcoming plans of Clarlight Saunasin terms of projects and in research that we should stay tuned for. I probably can't comment on thatat the moment.
You know, I think there’s something coolhappening in that space. I mean, we are maybe worth knowing is that we'd love to incorporate a vitaminD light in the sauna. You know,we have already incorporated red light therapy in the suna, we'veincorporated halotherapy in the sauna. So our vision is set the infrared saunasnot just going to be an infrared sauna. In fact, it's going to be a 5-in-1,6-in-1, 7-in-1 health device that allows youto stack these different modalities. As mention of myself, We’veactually re-launched our podcast.
We've had a podcast called “TheSauna Show.” You find some cool episodes on YouTube. We’ll actually,launch “The Healzy Show” next. That's a new adventure for us. It's another brand that stands for health simplified,and it also take a piss about two Germans not actually being properly ableto say “healthy” because of the TH. So we called it helzy.
And look,there's some other really cool products coming on the market,but it's not something I can share yet. But if you follow us on Instagramor Facebook or Instagram, you know, you'd hear about it for sure. Yeah, we'll put all the relevant thingsin the description. So thank you so much, Johannesfor sharing your knowledge and expertise and the deep conversation. Very much appreciate itand I wish you all the best for the next stepsand I hope to talk to you soon.
Thanks, mate. Thanks for having me. I really hope you enjoyed this interview! If you want to learnhow to optimize your performance and healthspan, pleasemake sure to subscribe to the channel, as we releaseweekly videos all about these topics. And if you want to 2x your energy levelsand perform at your peak, we can helpwith our Beyond Sapiens coaching. You can learn more about itfrom our website, beyondsapiens.co.
Thanks a lot for watching,and see you in the next one!